I agree with you Melissa.. the Republican party sucks.They need to give us a candidate that is tough as nails and will tell the press where to go. My healthcare premium at work is going UP $1000 next year because of Obamascare so they redistribute that money to those who do not want to work. Watch your gas prices go up to $5 or more a gallon then everything else will go up as well. America is still a great country but man the people here are so stupid. Chubre...Republicans do not dis women and minorites. Find a new song to sing? Obama's main concern is his wallet. We respect life of the unborn and the woman carrying that life. Minorities keep pulling that card at every chance (the self righteous bruthahs Al and Jessie are prime examples of that as is your King Hussein as he seems to forget he is part white).

Agree, would be nice if all those closet racist in the Republican party would come out and be honest about how they feel about a minority President. I am a 52 year-old white male and I have never seen so much animosity thrown at an elected President, until Obama was first elected 4 years ago. The only reason why congress has been stalemated the last 4 years is because the Republicans have crossed their arms and pouted like a bunch of spoiled 5 year olds, refusing to work with a minority Democrat President. The sky must falling in ever Republican household today.

Chris Christie needs to run he would tell the press where to go

It's time for minorities to quite whining and realize: 1) If you are an American, then you are no longer a Latino or other minority.(I'm German, does that make me a minority? Should I be whining because I'm not being treated fairly? 2) Rowe vs Wade will never, repeat never be overturned. Talk about a smoke screen. What is Obama really going to do? He can't answer that question and I have yet to hear one person that voted for him that can tell me why they wanted him.
Seems to me that the only people that voted for him are looking for a free ride. No wonder I didn't vote for him......I have to get up every day and go to work, pay my own bills and support my family. I know there are people that lost their jobs or have other issues that prevent them from working, but come on, there are also way too many people that would rather work the system than work themselves. My prediction is that unemployment will be in the 11 - 13% range come 2018, I hope I'm wrong.

Mellissa...sad to see so many angry white men posts...they appear to me to be in a denial bubble...and they unfortunately appear to me to prefer name calling and to see the country fail...fortunately the middle rules...thank you from a 69 year old white male...

I'm a woman who has spent the last 31 yrs of my life working while being a single mom for 24 yrs. I have never had everything that I wanted but I have worked very hard to have what I need. I just don't get the whole women think they are discriminated against. Come on people.The issues that are going on in the US concern all of us. People need to forget the "me" and start worrying about the "we". Obama went after so called "special interest groups" because anyone that had a brain knew what he was about.."him". If you live here you are an American, quit thinking you are special because of your heritage or color. The promises that Obama made will never play out. He just said those things because he wanted to get re-elected. He doesn't have a clue how to fix the economy without taking & taking. Taking more money isn't the answer..how the govt spends it is the entire problem. How many other president's wives have we seen on Doctor Oz, David Letterman, etc? Changes need to be made. The govt is starting to have way too much say in our lives and that is not the purpose of a govt. He is steering this country in the direction of other third world countries and he likes it. WAKE UP PEOPLE!! Quit thinking because you like what he is saying he really even gives a hoot; Politicians lie. At least Romney is a businessman and has some experience that could have possibly helped ALL OF US.....God Bless America! We need it more now than ever.

Right, and from what I remember, they said the same thing after the last election with all the support for Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, but looks like they didn't do anything about it for this election. (I'm a month late)

Like Phil commented. Stop using the women and minority card. If you are an American then start worrying about America....not your special interest group. My husband is a Native American Indian; talk about a group of people who got f#####. Does he or his family whine about it.....no. They go to work everyday and support their families. If people don't start worrying about the "we" and not the "me" we are all in big trouble. All the issues about women and minorities were just a smoke screen to get re-elected. If he couldn't pull in the weak, naive, and self-absorbed he never would have won. Wake up.....he does not care about your special group situations any more than he cares about the rest of us. He has an agenda and the American people are not a part of it. Think about it.....
God Bless America!

Phil..I don't think your insurance went up because of obamacare..because obamacare is an optional insurance you can pick.Noone gets it free..wow.You need to read up or something.I'm sick of the republicans hating..why do that?:(.It's because of this that I'm not republican anymore..thx guys for chasing peaceful loving people away from you.I hope you're proud of yourself.

Except Romney is correct--all 47% are going to expect a handout tomorrow.

TLaVigne; this is exactly what I am talking about.... why do people even have to bring up color, homosexuality, age, man, woman.... these people all claim they want equality but yet they have announce the color, homosexual, man, woman label in there. If we are going to be equals then we do not need to bring these things up. Does it make a difference if it is the 1st woman to do this, or the first negro to do that? it does not matter. We are all people, who cares about the color or male or female? Just do the job and do it well. Oh yea, and get rid of this hyphenated American BS. We are Americans here.If you came from somewhere else LEGALLY great! But if you are a citizen of the US you are American, not a hyphenated person.

yea the 47%....losers. People with thier hands out and thinking because they are homosexual, black, or basically non-white in general should have special treatment. The "party" as you call it is no what America is all about. America is all about it does not matter what or who you are, black, white, Homo or straight.... it should not matter. We should be treated equally. That does not meant same sex marriage is acceptable either. This country like it or not was founded on a certain moral belief and same sex marriage was not part of it. That said, homosexuals should be treated with the same respect as anyone else as should people of all races. LaVigne did say it correctly however.... lets all waor together to make this country great again, and make sure we do not re-elect another ding bat into the white house! :-)

Yes phil blackmore, you moron, that's because all those minorities are NOT TREATED EQUALLY!!! Will you ever get it????? Are you a middle-class white man? Maybe that's why you'll never get it???? Poke your head out of your trailer every now and then! Your comments are full of lies and untruths! If you deny ANYTHING to one group of people, then you are discriminating!! And, no you idiot, 47% of Americans are NOT sitting around with their hands out...that is just YOU repeating babble from Republicans. You and Earl Elevant can go to the playground together now and amuse yourselves for awhile, OK????

Phil..why are you so hateful? and that isn't true of people.Folks on social security worked for it and paid into it or they wouldn't have it.Stop hating please,it's wrong!

I didn't have a horse in this race. Both candidates sucked.

Again, both candidates sucked.

He's not my president...

Except for the people expecting the handouts don't pay taxes. They exist off of other people's taxes.

Believe me, I'd love to see my taxes go towards many things. Lazy freeloaders aren't one of those things.

Hey Matt..please read up and find o ut just what obamacare is all about and when you do you might feel a bit sorry for what you just said.It's not mandatory sir.It's an optional insurance program that isn't free like some are saying.It's like any other insurance but more affordable to pay for.Get your stuff s traight.I'm tired of this already.

Here's a small business owner who voted for Obama. Your arguments were the same when Clinton raised taxes in the 1990's, so they don't hold water.

Matthew: I think we would need lots of luck no matter who won. This wasnt a win- lose situation. It was a lesser of two evils. The election wouldnt have been so close if Obama was a total standout win.

This might have been a case of incumbent winning and people being wary of change.

Matthew - is your small business growing and selling weed? When walmart will have to adequately provide health insurance to it's employees - I'm supposed to feel bad? Do you mean every American having to pay a little more, maybe $0.15 more for a large pizza so someone with a menial job can have health insurance provided by their career employer - is bad for America?

The problem with America is people like you. You are not a job creator. The consumers are. Without them your small business will be reduced to what it probably was conceived for - a tax break.

America voted to remove all the tea party fools that are pretending they know what the worlds problems are. To bad they can't see that THEY are the problem.

The reason you don't know one small business owner that voted for Obama is that you don't run into his supporters at clan meetings

"Matthew - is your small business growing and selling weed?" That REALLY made me laugh! :-) Thank you.

A respectable employer that appreciates you will offer some kindof health plan.It's too sad that they have to be forced to do this.Oh,maybe they will think straight now and offer it like any decent employer should do.That's who you should b lame ,the employers that don't offer it..tht's disrespectful to their employees not to..even if the employee pays part of it..which when I was working that's what I did.Thank god there were good employers then instead of irresponsible ones that are only in it for the money they can get at our expense.

Joe Patriot - Democratic President Bill Clinton balanced the budget and even generated a surplus. I hope for continued job creation and moving toward full employment is essential for a balanced budget. Joe thanks for your suggestion Noblesse Oblige - the wealthy should do more; even Warren Buffet thinks so.

Too right about Clinton & balancing the budget! But Republicans don't want anyone to remember that -- they only care that he got a b###j## (like countless leaders of all parties before him). For eight whole years, that's all they cared about ...

Except Bill needed Newt to balance the budget. You can not deny that the "Clinton Balanced Budget" rode on the back Newt Gingrich's Republican House.

hey Joe,you're confused I think..the tea party is the PROB.

As for Clinton balancing the budget it was only because he lost the House on 1996. He was smart enough to compromise, I honestly ask where did Obama compromise?His entire re-election campaign was based on demonizing his opponent. Completely opposite of his postive 2008 campaign. It obviously worked.
I ask, if everyone is looking for a ride in the wagon who is left to pull it?

Another pearl of wisdom. Heed, you foolish Americans ! This comment is commonly referred to as a crock of excrement.

I agree Ed F. and wish to point out the irony of that Socialism comment. John Porter rejects the democratic process he witnessed last night. It's his way or no way.

Another #WAAAHpublican using words they don't know the meaning of.

What's it like to be GOP AND stupid?

John Porter work yourself to death and pay your taxes for nothing. I'd be proud for the U.S. to be a socialist democracy like Sweden, Denmark, and Switzerland. They are some of the wealthiest countries in the world and when they pay their taxes, they get something for it -- guaranteed daycare, healthcare, retirement income, and retirement housing. We can't even get Congress to agree on any of those issues to the point that even though we've paid in, Social Security/Medicare are "broke". What a crock.

Only if we consent to pay into it.

He didn't demonsize his opponent..the guy did it to himself with his history .duh.This is not socialism..please stop talking like you're ignorant when you sound like a very intelligent man.

Ed, you are such a curmudgeon....you make me grin real big!

Well,if the republicans in the senate work with the president everything 's goin to be okay.I honestly believe that..it's not looking real promising yet.Seriously they're making the end is near signs? Well,I know it's the endtime but idk if we're ready for that stuff yet.

And if you actually lived in a state like Massachusetts where Obamacare has been alive and well since 2006, you would know that it is an array of private health insurers who offer plans to those who are uninsured or underinsured. Premiums are based on income and Medicaid funds (instead of having to pay for the uninsured going to hospitals) are transferred over to help supplement the premiums. Massachusetts General Hospital is the #1 hospital in the country this year. So much for bringing down the healthcare system.

Now down 355 - OUCH!

Well said Richard. President Obama also has committed to education for all young people, not just those with wealthy parents who can pay, and he is trying to lead us toward clean energy. What a vision he has for us -- all of us, not just those who are white, religious, or wealthy. And I use the word "religious" loosely to describe those who are dogmatic and narrow minded, but I know there are plenty of religious individuals who voted for President Obama, who have a caring spirit toward people.

I agree wholeheartedly Richard. I consider myself an Independent, & never have I seen a candidate so out of touch with the American people than Mitt Romney. Onward & upward President Obama!

But, " The percentage decline would be the worst one-day slide of the year for the Dow if it closes at these levels." and that was written @11:04 (WSJ). I know it may come back, but still...ouch! Glad I took advice I was given if I thought Obama would win, but you never know.

Lyn, the large dip in the stock market is likely due to the impending fiscal cliff and anticipation that Congress will remain gridlocked and not do anything to stop it. To blame it all on Obama's reelection is an oversimplification of the problem.

We can also blame Greece.

However, the market always responds to elections. We can't keep making excuses and passing blame.

Lyn-
I had CNN on this morning at my business, and maybe you were watching this morning as well.
They were interviewing a commodity expert on the floor of the stock exchange, and he said the market is reacting to a statement made by the European Central Bank President concerning the European debt crisis. He said that before his remarks, the market was actually up early this morning, and crashed after the European announcement. Ali Velshi also reiterated this same statement around 11:00am.

Dan-
They are attributing the decline to 3 different factors - europe,election,fiscal cliff.
You can pick and choose which economist,trader or commentator to justify the decline. But as one said, the market went up after the first debate and it was those very same market sectors that were first hit hard today after the election. I also believe all 3 have an impact, but knowing that elections always effect the market, it is no surprise.

BTW- the market segments hit attributed to Obama - coal, financial, defense

Murphy, what do you do for a living? Approaching the Fiscal Cliff, if capital gains taxes are increased to ordinary income tax, no one in their right mind would keep their money in direct stocks. If you can sell now and pay 15% tax, why would you wait later and pay much more? Oh wait, you "think" it's a short term trend so keep your money in - my portfolio will appreciate it.

And they are overinflated now!

CNBC discussing right now

Hopefully they will keep being voted out

Get some Reps in that Boehner can work with!

Indeed. I really don't want to hear any more criticism about Obama & taxes until these far right commenters offer some analysis & critique of the Republican-controlled House of Representatives that stood together to do NOTHING for four whole years JUST because it was Obama in office. Where is your criticism of THAT when you bitch about where your taxes are going? Do you know how many Republican reps' massive salaries were paid by our taxes for four years to do NOTHING? I'm listening. I hope history judges them HARSHLY and marks down that childish lack of cooperation "just 'cos". Talk about a cost to the nation!

Sew Harry Reid's pockets shut so he can quit using the pocket veto! LOL!

And McConnell can go with them!
I think Boehner seems willing to work with all sides, though.

I'm an independent, leaning Rep.
That being said, I hope all those voted in in 2010 are replaced with some hard working Reps who want to see this country move forward.

You can give partial thanks to the tea party for losing the election. They had the momentum in 2010, and then threw it away by their actions,or lack there of. The Rep party would be much better off by moving more to the middle.

i always do what jay-z tells me to.

(better than ted nugent or kid rock, i guess.)

Where were you this time? You had a great chance to fix the "errors" Did you forget that there was an election or did you just figure that all the voter intimidation tactics and obstructive new voting laws were going to do the job for you? When you make it harder for Americans to vote, you just piss them off and then they're bound and determined to be heard. Thanks

Yeah - I wasted too much time this a.m.

Are you going to tell those employees that they're being let go because of the election? You forgot to mention how much of a pay/benefit cut you and your mgmt. team have volunteered to take.

How patriotic of you.

Businesses don't fail because of a President, an election, or Obamacare. Businesses fail because the management fails. If you had the right business plan and marketing plan and product, your business would be successful even through a recession.

Why all the bashing of Ken? Sounds like envy of someone who might have a few bucks. I don't think people enjoy seeing their business disappear, for whatever reason. And, I didn't read that he is making any cuts so he can make more money or expand operations or... on the backs of those who work for him. I assume he gets no joy out of delivering this bad news to his employees, but what would you have him do? Businesses do encounter troubles, yes. And some were fortunate to get bailouts from the taxpayers. Why are you mad at someone who was able to offer employment to others? Isn't this the small business person we should be encouraging instead of ripping apart? This is another example of class envy, rather than recognizing that these people should be the answer to a lot of our jobs problems. No wonder the vote went the way it did. Who will be there to employ people, only those we bailout? Or are people happy with more government programs to take care of them. Don't forget those people working 9 to 5 get to go home, but it is someone else who hired them and that person has to worry about the company 24/7. Without people like Ken, you aren't employed to begin with - get behind them!

Ken Adams: I hope some of the 135 employees read Mentor Patch and get notice that they are going to be cut. Not much notice tho since it is next week.

Yes, yes ... because fairy tales and mental masturbation REALLY helps.

Dear James M. (the apostle?): I prayed to God to look into the hearts of Mitt Romney and Barack Obama. I asked him which wealthy man spoke derisively about the 47%, which man's son said he would strike the President of the United States, which man closed companies for his own profit. I asked God which man is trying to use his beliefs, even though politically unpopular with many, to help young people get an education who have no wealthy parents to support them and which man is trying to provide healthcare to those in need. God answered. Thank you God for President Barack Obama!

Hey Jamey, you fiscal & social conservative you- yours, mine, or anyone else's religious beliefs are a private matter. People that go on and on about how 'religious' they are are usually the last people to lend a neighbor a helping hand or go out of their way for anyone else. So excuse me if I don't bow to your sceptor as you curse me into the depths of hell. Freedom of religion is still alive and well last time I checked. And thanks for the congratulations!!

Wow! Virtual AMEN to that, Watts. But will any Republicans respond to that?

It's certainly the truth.

Dear Watts: This is so true. I made the huge mistake many years ago of attending an evangelical "Bible" church. They called just about everybody "cults" including Catholics and Mormons. It was interesting to see them turn a blind eye to their own narrow-minded beliefs in this election. President Obama didn't disparage the poor, or those on food stamps, or those unemployed. Even if a small percent are dishonest, his heart was to care for those in true need. President Obama is trying to help those with health issues and unable to afford insurance. All it takes is a job loss to lose affordable health care coverage. We can pay for 2 ill-advised Republican wars with the deficit which followed, but we can't help our fellow Americans. I failed to see the "Christian" values of the Republican Party in this election. All they cared about was abortion and gay marriage. They didn't truly exhibit any "Christian" values toward people except those who were unborn "eggs".

What exactly do you think Obama is going to do to render this "once great nation" unrecognisable? Insure that all citizens have access to healthcare? <--(like every other first-world nation on the planet!) Is that it? What's the big threat?

I find it repugnant that you would prefer Romney -- a man whose only strength is making money for himself. AT ANY COST. Well, that and pandering to the usual Republican rubbish (gays aren't equal citizens, non-white people should know their place, every uterus in the nation should be under government control, etc).

Dear Marie: President Obama didn't have a chance at re-election without white people -- white men and women who believe in his vision for America. There were not enough minorities and gays to elect him. It was his views on healthcare, women, clean energy, education, compassion toward those less fortunate, gays, and reaching out to the world in a responsible and non-dictatorial manner which drew me to him. I'm white and I don't even see him as a "black" President. I see him as a President with a vision I respect.

SharEd-
I always get a laugh when someone tries to point out that Obama would not have won without the white vote (with which I agree 100%), but then don't go on to also say however, isn't it unfortunate that the minority vote isn't as color blind? Or, is this something we only think and dare not say, although if you can say the first, why not the second - to only be able to point out part of this observation would be inaccurate.

Regarding above comment, just on MSNBC, Chris Matthews - the black vote was split 93%/6%.

Lyn: I can't believe you can say that the minority vote isn't as color blind as the white vote. Are you a minority? Those minorities have been voting for white guys for years!

SharEd-
I guess my sarcasm, trying to be careful with the topic and the point I was trying to make got lost. Sorry.
I'll say it more direct - Yes, many whites voted for a black man, I agree with you; but, unfortunately, its a sad commentary when only 6% blacks voted for the white man while 93% voted for the black man.

Ken Adams -- I'm not sure if you are saying you are going to close your company because of Obamacare? In any event, if you lose your company, good luck finding affordable health insurance for you and your family. Under Obamacare, you would be able to select from health insurance plans and pay premiums based on your income. I guess if it is nothing, will you be taking advantage of Obamacare?

After reading your comments, we should all feel very fortunate that none of us work for your company. "I may close my doors perminantly (sp) in the next month." . You must be so proud of your business philosophy. Screw those doggone workers. You'll be OK, right ?

So he is supposed to stay in business and lose money.? You make no sense.

of course you would agree with that same philosophy. predictable response.

Ed where i went to school you need to have what they call money. they use it to buy raw materials to create products to sell. When they sell their products they in turn make money to pay their workers. If you don't make money eventually your business goes under.
I would not call it a philosophy. it's more of a reality.

I didn't quite follow that segue ... who is mooching? To whom are you referring?

Alan-
Yes, you can stay home another 4 years!

true Mike now we can impeach the Commander in Lies.

Mike i am glad you pointed that out on what Marie said.Because its the republicans that work so the lazy Democrats can sit on their lazy butts and dictate what is right and wrong.

Mike i am glad you pointed out that if you work you must be Republican.Therefore you are also saying to be a dem you are an entitlement leech of society.

Unfortunately there were many, many people on the government teat that voted in a man who will continue to encourage dependency. Actually, Mr. Obama has a good thing going for him.

Are you willing to work at making a "work requirement" necessary for welfare recipients? Are you willing to work at restoring the American ideal of the family; one man, one woman, married? Are you willing to encourage virginity till marriage?
Are you willing to bring back discpline into the school system and to have a curriculum based on American patriotism and exceptionalism?
Are you willing to encourage the government to begin to follow the Constitution and not read into it?

Melissa-
What is this, little kids on the playground playing one-upmanship.
"nah nah nah nah nah nah...my daddy works harder than your daddy!"
Get over it people. Either your guy won or lost.
If he won, congrats.
If he lost, hope the country does well and that the results will go your way next time.

Very well said, M-S !!!

So true Murphy-Solon. Mitt Romney's own mouth spewed "I'll do away with Obamacare on Day 1, PBS, Planned Parenthood, and reverse Roe v. Wade". His biggest mistake was adding Paul Ryan, a scary arch conservative. When Romney ran an ad telling Pres. Obama to take his "lies back to Chicago", I voted just for that. Back to Chicago with his Victory Speech! We got a brochure in the mail showing Romney against gay marriage and abortion. They made these issues front and center themselves and lost. No slimy politician or the government is my moral/religious guide. What a joke . . .

Thank you Melissa. I was about to say the same thing. Common sense when it comes to discipline in the schools. All the rest is moralistic bunk from a bunch of hypocrites. I'm sure they lead perfect lives -- ha ha.

I'm sorry to tell you Murphy-Solon but Americans cannot do whatever they want to just because. There are laws that include laws on behaviors that are limiting. Try walking nude at the mall.
As regards virginity, you reacted without thinking because I spoke not of mandating it but encouraging it. There are plenty of studies that speak of the value of this concept.
As regards homosexual marriage I would encourage you to study some of the early dictionaries that speak of marriage as being a union of man and wife. These dictionaries are as early as the 1700's and as late as 2012. And of course there is the bible which I doubt you believe in.
As regards the supression of votes, sorry but you missed the intent. Try to board an airplane, get a driver's license, cash a check, etc etc without an ID.
As regards the Bill of Rights which I have read it fyi, there is no clause that gives same-sex couples the right to call their union a marriage.
As regards the Constitution, I seriously doubt it is taught. I don't know. But it needs to be. Wouldn't you agree?
Now, the next time you get your bowels in an uproar over what is posted do a little thinking instead of ranting.

"Are you willing to bring back discpline into the school system and to have a curriculum based on American patriotism and exceptionalism?"

Oh, dear! I have problems with that question from beginning to end. If you mean physical pain (paddles, belts, whips, canes, etc) then NO -- absolutely not. Causing a child physical pain teaches them nothing but aggression, resentment and that causing others pain solves problems (bullies, war, etc).

The curriculum should be based on knowledge and facts -- America has done some great things and America has done some awful things -- I think all of it should be covered. Focus primarily on language, science and mathematics, I say. And along with that, learn about the world around you! Unfortunately, that is one of America's greatest educational failures.

"Patriotism" never seems to quite mean the same to Americans who use the word frequently versus what it actually means. It always seems to quickly slide into xenophobia and 'we have the right to bully the world'. Be proud of your country -- but that should be immediately followed by "be critical & realistic enough to continue to work to make your nation something to be proud of!"

"Are you willing to encourage the government to begin to follow the Constitution and not read into it?"

ABSOLUTELY! :-) I assume you weren't being ironic. We certainly agree on that. Again, it seems the people who harp on about The Constitution the most haven't read it (much like the bible then). I hope we can start with acknowledging that clear division between church & state -- America is NOT a christian nation -- America is NOT a theocracy. If you think it should be, go visit Iran and see what that's like -- that's what religion in government looks like. But you are free to believe what you want in your house and at your church. Amen.

Yes yes yes! Your comments are right on the money RIT. And James Motylinski, you don't have a clue. I bet your ancestors burned witches.

Oh, no. But thank you! :-)

Even now, America would never elect a rational atheist President.

And I'm pretty sure the factory farm lobby would 'slaughter' me for being a compassionate vegan -- can you imagine that propaganda campaign !?!

[*giggles*]

OK..OK..
I told you, go ahead and stay home for the next 4 years.
Get nice and comfy. Maybe they will decide to send out a few stimulus checks to those staying at home. And, don't forget, if you don't make those mortgage obligations you agreed to, that's OK too! They'll just give you a bonus check for going into foreclosure or just say you can pay less. Don't worry, your neighbor who pays their bills will pick up the slack.

Oh, dear ... we've reached THAT stage of the discussion ... the fake profiles posting their racist imaginary "worst fears" for a target audience of the sacred & scared lily-white. Please limit that rubbish to your Klansman newsletter! Thanks.

Where is the racist comment? You can't just pull that card because you don't like that someone is making a statement. Just who here equates taking advantage of the system to race. I'd say it is you making that assumption, being racist.
(sorry - part of original lost)

That's a valid point, Lyn ... one I'd considered before I posted. But I so rarely [read: NEVER] hear white people criticising other white people in terms of payback, welfare, single mothers, etc ... it's like when people speak of border control & immigration, they rarely [read: NEVER] mean Canadians.

To state the obvious, if 'Alan T' is a real person of colour and/or a democrat, he's just trying to 'get your goat', so to speak . Just saying what the ignorant white people want to hear ... then sitting back with some popcorn and watching the show!

yea thanks for stiking up for me richard the klan is everywhere

Richard-
Ever hear the term "trailer trash", and what color do you associate with that. There are more examples, but I won't use them.
And, couldn't we all be commenting in the extreme to make a point?

wow. the lunatics are in the hall........

Yup ... just like those Republicans in New York & New Jersey who tried to dismantle FEMA. I'm sure NONE of them who lost everything have asked for any help from the government -- or from the [socialist] fire department & rescue.

Why do you say socialist fire department & rescue?

My point is, socialism already exists in this country (and in most countries). It is not *the* way here in the USA -- nor will it ever be -- but socialism is NOT bad and can co-exist in a democracy with capitalism. It truly works for some aspects of organised society (like healthcare!). The fire department, Social Security, Medicare, the police itself, all of the armed forces, road crews, the air traffic control system, the public education system, the FDA and the EPA are just some examples of 'socialism' on the macro- or micro-economic level.

Until Obama was elected, I don't think I'd ever heard an American outside of a university use the word 'socialist' -- it seems no one knows what it means -- although 'socialist' quickly became a codeword for ... well, you know ... the premier buzzword substitution for a racial expletive.

I don't think people equate their local taxes paying for safety services as being socialism. That is part of what people pay local taxes for. Same as garbage collection. They are receive a benefit for what they are paying.
Regarding social security, people pay into that fund and is different from other types of so called entitlement programs. They expect to get back from what they put into.
However, I'm not taking issue with FEMA- but maybe how it is managed. I don't really know enough about it, other than I would not want to be one of those still suffering from the lack of services now on the east coast. Political presence from both parties was nice at first, but that doesn't feed you, keep you warm or put a roof over your head if you are one of those unfortunates. My heart goes out to them.

I think people use the word socialism when they see redistribution of income and more government involvement in business and individual lives.

Lyn reported with much dismay: Yikes! Dow closed down again, they say on CNBC now over fears of taxes increasing and too much uncertainty after the election. Down 121, yesterday 313 - total 434 down"

gee there is a surprise.... same thing happened last time Obutthead got elected too. Wake up America.

facts.... democrats.... sounds like an oxymoron to me, or just like a plain moron. Yea, Obama is back for another 4 horrible years and people like you cannot see the truth of what he is doing to this country. The bail outs sure worked wonders didn't they..... That is why we are so far in the hole we will never get out. But I suppose you will blame that on Bush as well.

facts are facts
the democrats had 9 million less votes cast for obama then in 2008 that is a -15
the republicans had 2 million less votes cast for office than 2008 that is a - 3
(11 million people did not like either of them) so the polls were oversampling democrats
remember the final polls were obama + 6 in ohio (he won by a little over 1%)

but murphy-solon what is still your beef ???? the election is over..... the Obama platform is passed and I agreed to wait for all of his promises to be completed and now you want to call me a liar ?????

I agree -100%

Based on what your saying, the same could be said of the Hispanic population. But yet about 27% voted for Romney, and only 6% of the blacks did.

Please do not create a race argument - I will not participate.

I'm not making it about race — I'm presenting points about MINORITIES (not just racial ones). Frankly, I'm bewildered that so many [well, any] women vote Republican. You *can* be against abortion without legislatively destroying the personhood of all female citizens. Once the government is in your uterus and can make choices for you, you are no longer an individual with rights & freedoms. SCARIEST. SLIPPERY. SLOPE. EVER. Just saying!

I guess I'll never understand why anyone feels it's their place to make choices for, dictate & control other people — because that's what it's really about. Imagine how much tax money could have been saved over the last 50+ years if we allowed other people to make decisions about their own bodies (be it what consenting adults do in their bedrooms or what a woman does with her uterus)!

And then Republicans want to talk about 'less government' ... don't make me laugh!

Believe it or not, some people who vote Rep, are Pro Choice. I assume those voting Dem do not always embrace everything that comes out of their candidates mouth, at least I hope they are more individualistic.

Funny, those "in favor of abortion" say its all about the woman. I prefer "prochoice", does anyone really favor abortions?
Those "against abortions" feel it has to do with the life of another - "prolife".
Can't people understand the others views and respect them?

Richard Ian Tracy: Thank you. As a woman, I don't mind that some women make what to them is the right choice about abortion either way and I believe in their right to do it. On the other hand, government and men/women in the name of religion shouldn't tell me what I can do with my very own body, my very being and soul. Also, what gay people do behind their doors or even in public is not my business. The homophobic couple across the street are probably whipping each other ala Shades of Grey (ha ha) or having affairs at work. So should we say they can't be married because of their "sin" (just being facetious here)? Not my business. Gays are people who can share lives together, share health insurance if one of the partners doesn't have health insurance, and they can pass down their assets to the one they love through marriage. So don't call it marriage but civil unions with the same benefits of marriage if you are so horrified. These issues were made so big by Republicans in the election that they lost it. . .

Lyn: President Obama stated unequovically he would protect a woman's choice. Mitt Romney stated unequovically that he would reverse Roe v. Wade. His running mate Ryan didn't believe in choice even if a woman was raped or in the case of incest. Romney softened it to "except in the case of rape and incest." It was pretty clear that if you were pro-choice you had no choice but to vote for President Obama. Under President Obama pro-lifers still have the right to make their own decisions.

Newsflash: Abortion wasn't the only issue; and it wasn't the most important one to me. And, I did not agree with all that Romney stood for and I did not disagree with everything that Obama had done. I'm a little more open minded. Can you say the same?
But for me, after comparing the 2, the past 4 years, and each party's basic philosophies, it wasn't even close in the end in who I would vote for.

Hi Lyn: This is fun. I also looked at all the issues (having an M.B.A. with a specialization in research) from education, to healthcare, to energy, to policies which would move the economy and create jobs in an inherited recession. I have lived all over the United States including Massachusetts where Obamacare is giving all residents access to the #1 hospital system (2012) in the United States after six years under this "frightening" program. I've lived firsthand in Europe in or near those socialist democracies which are thriving despite Greece. Being open minded is no problem for me having lived throughout the world and studying to a high level (with student loans by the way). It was a slam dunk for me which candidate had the right ideas and obviously I wasn't alone. Women's rights were just the icing on the cake.

sharEd wrote
" those socialist democracies which are thriving"
once a socialist always a socialist

SharEd-
It must be lonely there at the top of the mountain you are preaching from, as though no one else has a brain or education beyond grade 6! I'd like to say I respect most peoples opinion, but people like you make it hard. Get off your high horse and realize that others can have a differing opinion and the nation can still work. Your attitude is counterproductive - and is what causes Washington to come to a screeching halt.

Kim L and Lyn: Sorry guys. You are the ones calling "names" and not letting me state my opinion. Get off your high horse too. I can whatever I darn well like and funny thing is that now you have to live with most of my opinions because of the election. If you had ever been out of your respective areas where you live, you might experience first hand some successful socialism. Try opening your minds instead of accusing me of being a socialist and causing gridlock in Washington. Geez, I didn't know I had that much power. I don't have to respect your opinion either since you have that kind of attitude!

SharEd-
Too bad your high level of education didn't include reading comprehension -as you are misstating what I said. And as I said after the election, it is time for everyone to move on, congrats to those if your man won. And if your man didn't -maybe next time.

Try getting on with your oh so full life you have described. I don't know why you are so bitter.

I don't know, 6% is awful low and to deny the race part is naive, IMO.
But, I just might have gone Dem this time.

I think I'm done with this topic. Some,not you, still have anger and want to argue and I'm done with all this rubbish. Its time to move on. I was only making an observation and reporting what I heard on MSNBC, and still people get defensive. It wasn't even from FOX -it was from their own news source! Some people will never be happy unless they rip into others.

Oh, I did mean to comment on your code words comment - there are plenty of white people on welfare and foodstamps. So, if someone takes offensive to that and thinks they are pointing the finger at one race, that is THEIR problem. More than just one race is collecting those and people need to quit trying to say that is code for this or that. I'm tired of having to have someone question what I said when there was no intent on my part. And I know I can't possibly be alone. There may be a few idiots out there - but they also represent both races. People really need to move on and deal with more important matters.

yea the repuklican party is full of racests all they want to do is cut out our welfare and foodstamps thats why we hate them

Phil, you will never be pregnant. In my opinion, you should not have any say on the matter of what a woman does with contents of her uterus (or any other body part) — nor should any other man — or any other woman — and certainly not the government.

A woman is a free citizen with indivisible personhood & equal rights — or she's property under government control. There *is* no middle ground.

You might not like it. It might not be what you would do. Hell, it probably would not be what *I* would do. But I trust women to be in control of their own bodies. We must — the alternative is fascism.

[As for the 2-in-1 pregnant woman murder/death rule, I disagree with that, too — to judge otherwise would be inconsistent in the eyes of the law. Consistency is necessary, even if it's not pleasant.]

Just to clarify - I did not say what Phil has in quotes; he was copying the other person who was addressing me previously in a post

"The word is still out on Obama being American" -- Barack Obama's mother is DEFINITELY American. It would not matter if he was born on Mars, he's still American as American can get. That *is* United States law. Being over 35 and having lived in the US for more than 14 years, he is eligible to be President. End of. Full stop. Dems da' rules. I do hope this is clear & brings an end to your anxiety on the matter.

I disagree with the candidate part.
I believe that there is a huge misconception about what conservatives and especially what Romney was saying. He did not say all Gov't programs were bad. he said that we have to review all the programs. We need to find which programs are working and which ones are not. It's true we are spending too much.
We need to create jobs not regulations.

mz very well said and will also agree to the "the better campaign won" statement over the better candidate (shush murphy thats just my opinion )

MEOW....

BARK . . .

Phil what you dont realise is dogs have it made they get free food and free places to live and they get to lay around and relax

you should try it some time

Alan T displayed his intelligence with:
"yea the repuklican party is full of racests all they want to do is cut out our welfare and foodstamps thats why we hate them"

First of all awesome spelling job there fella. And yea we do want people off welfare and food stamps. That would mean those people had jobs and were not depending on the government (and my tax dollars). Personally I want to know why it is so bad to require a drug test to get your welfare check? I am subject to them at work where I make the tax dollars for your welfare checks, but I do not complain about peeing in a bottle. I do complain that I have and welfare people do not, or they keep having kids and keep getting mo money to keep making mo babies.

Alan further shared his wisdom: "Phil what you dont realise is dogs have it made they get free food and free places to live and they get to lay around and relax you should try it some time"

rest my case.......

as for Lori who said "phil blackmore OMG! You have a long 4 years ahead of you. I feel bad for you.

I feel bad for America and feel bad people were dumb enough to re-elect this guy. I was not surprised he got re-elected either. I see how the American people have become.

A lot of people will not be having a better Saturday nor way beyond Saturday.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/share-this-massive-list-of-post-election-firings-and-layoffs-with-everyone-you-can

"the blood sucking banks wanted to pull the rug out from under them for missing a few payments !" Yeah!! and just think, if someone didn't make their car payments a bank might be cruel enough to repossess the car too! Afterall, those banks are there to hand out money, and we should only have to make payments if and when we can!! That's the new American way!

Chubibe out of touch with reality Mike; you really do crack me up with your rants. Been sipping the kool aid again I see. Obama saved nobody's homes except his own. The word is PAID not payed too. The housing bust was caused by 3 things. Over inflated values on the homes to begin with, people getting loans for a house the could not afford to begin with, and then of course the greedy bankers giving the loans they knew could never be paid back but the would still own the homes. Now people are without houses and that sucks and the banks foreclosed on houses that are not worth spit.Hate to say it but those two are the main responsibility for the housing issue. We Americans want all our toys(new cars, boats, cellphones, cable tv the list goes on and on) and will use credit cards to get them instead of saving to by them when we have the cash like was should be doing. And no we here do not have cable, boat, and we drive cars that 7-11 years old. I am the only one who brings home a paycheck and we get by oh yea, I am an hourly employee at a NONUNION work place. America has no sense of responsibility when it comes to spending money. The banks want their money just like you want your weekly pay check (I assume you actually work) so do not just blame the banks here. People need to take their share of responsibility for their problems as well in some cases. Losing a job is not their fault in most cases either. You are right, I could care less about Obama does, so far nothing good.

When will people start taking responsibility for their own choices? That bigger house they wanted, fancier car, tech equipment... Maybe some shouldn't even own a home - would be nice, but until they are more secure, they need to wait and save - and pay rent. Nothing wrong with a smaller home - why do people need these big cold mausoleums? Do people ever consider that working paycheck to paycheck is dangerous? And, if they lose their job, it is NOT the banks fault. If a person isn't paying for months and months, do you really think the bank, just because they are some big company, should forgive those missed payments? How about if everyone gets 2 months out of the year to not have to pay? And then, go in and renegotiate their loans at some future date because they are unhappy with what they agreed to years earlier? Do people turn over the increase value to the banks? But they sure go blaming the banks and expect something from them when the value goes down.
There was a very small percentage of loans that fall into the category you describe - "loaners were acting against the law". The other homeowners need to take responsibility, be adults - its not always the other guys fault. But, yes people might be "victims" of the economy in general.

Lyn I agree with 110%! People need to take responsibility for their actions and choices. I also agree with you on these big houses they "just had to have". and the fancy cars.

Chubbie Mike, I have no problem helping someone who wants to help themselves. I do have a problem with the way welfare is handled (mandatory pee tests, no more babies to get more money, no free cell phones). As for Egypt I think you better see where Hussein stands with that because I have not seen him do a thing to help out or Syria. I give a lot of credit to Israel too for not taking out Iran yet. I would have hit them with the first threat from that wacko and not waited this long. This is where Bush pissed me off. he said if a country harbored terrorists we would come in after them.What about Pakistan and Syria? Should have nailed them years ago. As much as this hurts me to say this I agree with you Mike (in part) on the Iraq. The way we went about it was wrong. Saddam proved he had WMD's in the past, everyone's Intel said he still had them or had the capability to produce them. We seem to forget Saddam tossed out the UN inspectors and was given way to many chances to allow them back so what was the world supposed to think? His choice and he suffered the consequences. Sadly as in ALL wars, civilians suffer because of it, but those same civilians had the opportunity to join the US in taking back their own country and to they have failed to do so. We fought for our freedom they can do the same.

Hey Murph, any comments on this blog?
http://strongsville.patch.com/blog_posts/falling-off-the-cliff-means-sky-high-taxes-for-most
I don't think it shows up on Solon's Patch

LOL! How dare you scoff at Mark Twain! ; )

I am not surprised. Chavez, Fidel and Putin were all FOR Obama. LOL! Study Russia from 1917....the tsars were horrible, but the people traded down.

Lori, what is the fair share? If you answer I have a follow up question, how did you determine the fair share?

If I get taxed on my income, then save enough to make investments and years down the road earn money on those investment incomes, how much should I be taxed on that income? Wouldn't that be double taxation? Wouldn't that motivate me to not save and then invest that money?

If we took all the money from the rich and redistributed it to the poor, would America be better off? What if we took only half?

Indeed. "Business is business" to some people. They would metaphorically (possibly literally!) take a child's piggy bank and feel nothing. Well, the joy from yet another acquisition, perhaps.

And don't forgot those who profit from war — that is the single most vile aspect of the 1%. For example, check Dubya's cabinet and the businesses they own and are invested in. "War on Iraq, you say? Kill some brown people *AND* make money? Win/win!"

Who profits from wars waged abroad? It's not the [majority] poor & lower-middle-class families whose sons & daughters are fighting it and dying — yet most of those same people & their families essentially vote for the "1%".

[NOTE: I am not criticising soldiers — I am criticising The War Machine that goes unnoticed by the average person.]

Also see: those who [own companies that] profit from natural disasters — they also oppose FEMA ... funny that!

Richard, you may want to check your 401K.

401K? I don't follow — nor do I have a 401K.

Richard,
Nevermind.

Murphy, would you agree that health insurance should be opened up across state lines and that the current system limits choice?

See Murphy, we can get along. I agree with your post and think that opening up health insurance across state lines like car insurance has the potential to drop rates. There are certainly pockets of the country with more high risk drivers, but the risk can be mitigated via a larger pool.

Just a thought, I still don't understand why my health insurance choices are limited to the few that are available in Ohio.

Exactly, that is the double taxation I was referring to. I don't really think the arguments matter to some though. There are plenty out there who really believe we are playing in a zero sum game and that if someone else has more, it means that they have less. It's is always done under the guise of fairness.

It amazes me that there are so many Americans that want to forcibly take additional money from a fellow American and send it to Washington to be divided up and spent by faceless bureaucrats. Why are they not screaming that we have got ourselves into a position of an ever growing government that has an addiction to spending the people's money?

We used to look up to successful people and want to emulate them. Now, sadly, they are labeled evil and greedy based on their success. I fear we have passed the point of no return.

What corporate deductions are you talking about?

I've been having that debate with myself - and its still ongoing. I can see why both sides could feel the way they do.

I keep falling back on the fact those corporations already faced taxation.

And then what do you say about someone who sits at home and trades once a week, retired, and that is an additional source of income? Its still like double taxation, regardless. But I see what you are saying. The only thing you could do is tax their salary they draw at the earned income rate

You could if we start the Green BS Co. and get our $500 million stimulus money.

Are you serious with your question?
Those are all expenses related to the production of income and related to conducting business.
If you take someone out for a business lunch- deduct it.

Haven't looked at their financials - so, I have no answer. Doesn't sound right though. Would be nice!

Huh? Are you comparing taxes a corporation pays to tuition you paid - so you shouldn't have to pay the difference?
A corporation, just like you and I, spends the cash produced from a positive cash flow that might result if income exceeds expenses. Cash flow is different from taxes, but ...
Sounds like a bit of a stretch, but go for it!

A better comparison already exits and has been addressed for individuals when talking about double taxation - estate taxes. That is more in line with the same thing. Income/profits have already been taxed, but then the government wants more when it passes into anothers hands.

You forgot to mention to be sure to read the whole thing. It would be easy to be turned off by the first part and just quit reading!

I'll give you the capital gains part is "weak". But, it is still unearned income.
However, you have to agree that dividends and income distributions from corporations is a different matter and is double taxation of the same profits.

Your examples of other forms of double taxation is not a good correlation. Those are different forms of taxes. Double taxation refers to the similar taxation of the same monies.
Your wages are taxed - yes. You pay sales tax or excise tax on some purchases - yes. But those purchases, even though acquired with the proceeds from your paycheck, the item being taxed is the product being purchased and has nothing to do with your paycheck. You are overreaching.

Also, they are being taxed by entirely different entities... Most of your payroll taxes are to the federal government, a smaller portion goes to the state, and a tiny portion (~2% or less) goes to the local government. Sales taxes go to the county government.

Another good point and difference.

As I indicated, I'm on the fence about the capital gains part. I would not be opposed to going back to earlier rates - that were, however, still better than those on earned income. I know there is anger over the rich paying less percentage if the source is from unearned income, or capital gains, but the reasons really are clear. Remember, simply said, capital gains and losses are a result of a companies growth or not - and then the individual claims the effect of these transactions that first effected the company. Better people than I can explain it, but I tried to state it as elementary as possible.

Lori-
You are right. Some have. But by the amount that has been paid in, not many to make up the small amount that has been contributed, yet there are plenty of people telling others that taxes should be higher. Then, I'd like to say to the wealthy, why not put your money where your mouth is.
Here is a list of contributions per the Treasury:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm

So, when do you say one is at 15% and another is not? What if I'm a day trader? What if I trade once a week, once a month....?

That's because it is considered compensation.

I'm not talking about the dent it would make in the debt amount - I'm talking about being a man of your convictions.

(Market opening soon ... got to get my trades ready .... ha-ha)

Today - down 185

Hey Chubbie, where have you been? We have been at war since Bush Sr was in office. Oh wait we have never declared war...it has all been a "conflict". War just sounds so.... bad. Almost as bad as those stupid COEXIST bumper stickers we all see. Yea, I want to COEXIST with a religion that kills innocent civilians and beheads people, treats women worse than dogs..... but I digress. If Christ returns soon i promise you will not hear abbout the middle east conflict (WAR) for another 58 years. Oh yea, lets give the Palestines a country so they can drag bodies thru the streets and continue to support terrorist groups like Hamas while we turn our back on Israel who have done nothing but defend themselves.

OK, OK, you have held corporate America the cause of all out problems, consistently. But...you have not offered a solution to our economic woes (and they are NOT all caused by corporate America), the government with its big spending ways also has a hand in this. If we get rid of or nationalize industry...where will that lead us? Give me an alternative...

I think the current culture/ethos of this nation is a disaster on wheels, with or without the fiscal cliff. Read that Pravda article. That guy sees us pretty clearly thru a lens we are incapable of accessing due to our American experience and our evolved narcissistic mind set.

That is, get rid of the Bush tax cuts and what Obama added to them. Since Clinton years are held as being a better period, just go back to that - for taxes, and also lower spending.

Lyn - all federal expenditures come out of the same pot. There are no separate funds. When politicians talk about, say, the "Social Security Fund," they are doing so for illustrative purposes, but it is a fiction. All federal taxes go into the same pot - there is no difference between a dollar collected from FICA taxes and one collected from income taxes.
Also - the federal government cannot save money in the same way that you or I can. They are the country's banker - it's not all that different than being the banker in Monopoly. When the government spends deficit money, that money gets added to the economy. When they tax money, it gets removed from the economy. As much as I like Clinton, his budget surpluses damaged the economy, and a recession followed soon after.

Yup. Clinton got a BJ ... and Republicans lit their proverbial cigars with the public funds for six whole years worrying about it and conditioning their high horses! So let's keep it real with that — the BJ didn't burn up tax money ... the pointless moralising did.

In fact, pretty much all Republicans did for their salaries and with tax money was keep controversy alive for the rest of Clinton's first & second term — just like now: all they do is refuse to cooperate, compromise or work for the public good ... the *ONLY* thing they care about is making sure Obama accomplishes as little as possible. {*Boop!*} the public & the real problems, right? I find that far more repugnant and offensive than Clinton's indiscretions.

Moralise all you want ... on your own time ... outside of Congress and the courts. Clinton balanced the budget and created a BUDGET SURPLUS — so there — facts are facts. Suck it.

Frankly, I wouldn't care if he was {*boop*}ing {*beep!*} in the public restroom. Oh, wait ... that's always a CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN MORALISER who gets caught out doing that. Hmmmm? Funny that.

"The democrats do not know how to handle money." — Well, that's a lie and a fallacy. Clearly.

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/

Finally, the government is suppose to represent the people. If it does not, change the government. An "us versus them" paradigm is pointless, lazy and nothing more than playground politicking.

As much as I hate bashing my head against a brick wall, I had to respond to this. The federal budget in a fiat economy is not comparable to your household budget. The feds can (and do) create new money to spend. There is no chance of bankruptcy. Zero. Nada. When you can create dollars, as the government can, you can always pay the bills.

If you care to look into it, you will find that there is no correlation between deficit spending and inflation, or deficit spending and interest rates. In fact, periods of sustained efforts to balance the budget and pay down the debt are always followed by recessions or depressions. That includes the period following Clinton's budget surpluses. Budget surpluses remove dollars from our economy, and that's bad. Budget deficits add dollars to our economy, and that's good.

Awesome point Chris! You forgot to add in he was not charged with LYING under oath about the affair! Nah Slick Willie did not have relations with that woman. Those stains on her dress were from clam chowder I guess.

It is not a fiscal cliff it is Ebonic Economics. Obama is spending money on everything but something that will fix the problem. Americans are overspending (just look at the credit card useage) as we just have to have our toys, big houses, expensive cars, cable TV..... then we put our kids in day care and let someone else raise them because we are to selfish to NOT have our toys and big houses and cars and live within our means. Kids need their moms, not someone else raisng them.

Watts-
We gave up commenting to each others posts, I thought. But I only revived this article because it seemed to be the one most recently commented on about national politics and truly wanted an answer to my questions. Not to generate any negative debate. If there had been another article about the fiscal cliff, I would have commented there. But, again, my questions were not to cause Reps against Dems, or to take a stand on what is now going on. There are a few posters on here that discuss issues without bashing. So, why not use this forum to talk to those whose opinion I respect, on both sides - as Phyllis and Murph are.

Hey lyn, it isn't all about you. I don't even have a clue what post of yours that you think that I am replying to. I came here because I saw these whacky posts from Chris Chin.

Now get over yourself.

Lyn - the government has been using the SS surplus for years. In a symbolic gesture, the SS fund holds federal govt. bonds, but this is like borrowing money from your left pocket to loan to your right pocket. The governement creates both dollars and bonds, so this exchange is just an accounting fiction.

The key to understanding this is understanding that the federal government cannot "save" money. If the government holding lots of dollars meant anything, they could print up as many as they wanted, hold them all, and call themselves rich. The only way the government can truly have a surplus of dollars in any given year is by taxing more dollars out of the economy than they spend into it. Conversely, when the government runs a budget deficit, more dollars are added to the economy. The government does not owe anybody anything for doing this - they print up dollars for free. The only danger is in creating too many new dollars, which could lead to inflation.

John-
When you said " the government has been using the SS surplus for years", that's what I meant when I said "the SS fund is a source for the government to borrow from".
And your left pocket and right pocket example is correct in that the current national debt of $16,369,548,799,604.93 includes intragovernmental debt of $4,816,348,184,806.98 - a large amount of this is owed to the SS fund.
To say it is accounting "fiction" is not correct. When monies are taken from one fund to another, it is basic accounting that a debt is incurred because an amount is now owed when it is borrowed - regardless of it still being the same federal government.

Hi, Lyn -
It is an accounting fiction, because the government's overall financial position does not change one bit due to the exchange. It is as if you created a "utilities fund" in your one and only checking account, "funded" it with $500/month of normal income, and paid your utility bills out of your checking account, the same checking account from which you pay all of your bills, and into which you deposit all of your income. If your utility bills were consistently less than $500/month, you could say that your "utility fund" ran a surplus, but this would not change the net balance of your account. Your checking account could even be overdrawn, yet your "utility fund" could still show a surplus, all because of accounting.

The double-entry accounting trick here is that on the government's legder, one side is the dollars created and spent into the economy, and the other is merely a record of those dollars. The government has no actual liability on those dollars that they have created over the years - the only thing you can demand from them for your dollar is a different dollar. (It used to be gold.) The dollars on the other side of the ledger - the ones held by the government itself (I count the Fed's holdings, too) - are meaningless. The government created them, and now it took them back. It is as if those dollars never existed.

Oh, John, you are so wrong.
Your example of a household checking account being the same as the government is a bad one. A better comparison is that a household has 2 checking accounts, one for utilities and for other expenses. If the utilities acct. has extra money, the other checking acct. may take from it - borrow from it. But as this is an individual, unless they really want to run it as a business, or the govt., it will only be repaid if they are borrowing because it happens to be,say, at a time when utilities cost are lower and the fund needs replenishing for the winter bills. If one set their finances up, they would determine the average utilities and deposit that monthly and just might borrow monthly, but would need to repay for future higher months. But at years end, if there is extra - the other account may take from it, just as the general fund takes surplus funds now from the SS fund.

You, in basic accounting terms, have created accounts payable and accounts receivable - these are not part of a balance sheets fiction. It is part of the financial position of an entity.You can only compare to how a household makes decisions so far - but make a proper comparison when you do. Households are not audited and do not normally produce balance sheets to reflect the AR and AP that would exists on both accounts.

That is why you have a portion of the national debt that is actually intragovernemental - and it is NOT fiction, only in your mind or uneducated (not a slam, just if you don't know, you don't know) understanding of how simple accounting is. Simply because if monies are moved, there is a trail which IS part of accounting - not accounting fiction.

Lyn -
Your mistake is thinking that a completely internal AR/AP balance (such as the government owing itself money) makes a difference on the net balance sheet. It does not. Sure, you can keep track of how much FICA taxes have brought in, and how much SS has been paid out, and say that SS is "in the black" or "in the red" because of that. But that does not mean that the government actually treats SS any differently than any other budget item. Your proof is circular.

You wanted to know why SS and Medicare were on the table in the fiscal cliff talks, that is why. There are no separate accounts. There is *an accounting* - people do keep track of how much FICA has brought in over the years and how much SS has paid out over the years, but there is only one big federal checkbook. And, importantly, there is no federal "savings account."

The idea of SS being "in the black" or "in the red" is only a political football. When it goes in the red, that's when the Conservatives start kicking it around.

FINALLY! You admit it is not an accounting fiction. And this is why separate balance sheets are generated for the SSA. Just because they call it a "fund balance with treasury" instead of actual cash, those monies still belong to the SSA. You seem to want to make some point. And, you want to talk about how the government can print money and other unrelated things.
So, I will just continue to assume the answer to my original question is simply that the government, through the general fund, rapes the SSA and therefore they want to make changes to SS and medicare so there will be more money to take.

Lyn -
I have admitted no such thing - because you are simply wrong. I answered your question and tried to explain to you why SS is treated the way it is, and you choose to ignore reality and see things the way you wanted to all along. Fine, that's your loss, not mine. I have no dog in this hunt.

The reason I attempted to explain some government accounting to you is because it is relevant in light of your (very common) misconception that a federal agency (such as the SSA) can save dollars in any real sense, separate and apart from general spending. They cannot, and it takes some understanding of how a fiat currency works to understand this. I see now that I should not have bothered.

BTW, there are no changes in the way SS/FICA works that would make more money available for the government to "take." Tax receipts are tax receipts, no matter where they come from, and spending is spending, no matter where the dollars came from. It does not matter how the taxes collected by the federal government are labeled.

I can tell by your blog, which I chose to not comment on because it was so "out there" - to say there is no debt, and by what you write here, that you have some theories you want to put forth. But, they just won't fly. Yet you have chosen to continue that discussion on here by further calling everyone else as having a common misunderstanding, while you have these wild theories You seem intent on trying to convince everyone that they don't know what they are talking about when they say there is a national debt. I've seen this same theory on hubpages and other posters try to attempt this, but isn't it too bad that a handful of people are so smart while the rest of us just don't get it? You can see it with simple accounting - checks and balances.
When I refer to changes its regarding the fiscal cliff negotiations - keep up. And, maybe you need to take a look at the SSA balance sheet and read the accompanying notes to the financial statements so that you will have a better grasp on things. I may not know a lot about how the government works, but finances, accounting and numbers - those things that balance and can be analyzed, I know.
And, where did I say anything about SSA saving any money in a savings account? I spoke of accounts receivable and fund balances with the treasury (as it is on the balance sheet).
Based on all you say, just print money and don't bother with any accounting. What a wonderful world. And all will be OK

Chris Chin's posts that I have seen are nothing more than goofy nonsense.

Yea why didn't they axe for Mitt's birth certificate? Oh wait I know.... Because there was NO DOUBT about where he was born! Once again the lib here dodges the real issue.... why did it take 3 years to produce a birth certificate? What was the big deal to just produce it when it was questioned? And why will he not release his college transcripts? How did he get into such an expensive school to begin with when those kinds of scholarships are usually given to foreign students? No there is no double standard here. If Bush were in charge when the Lybia murders took place yopu libs would be crying IMPEACH HIM. Bubba Obama said for a week after the TERRORIST ATTACK it was because of a stupid movie and was not a TERRORIST ATTACK. Nah no double standard here. Even if it was because of a stupid movie what did Hussein do about the murders and attack on American soil? NOTHING!

Can somebody lift up the rock that Phil is living under and let him know that the election is over and nobody gives a crap about those fringe conspiracy theories anymore. Not even Limbaugh is bothering with that stuff anymore and that guy will drag out the most inane stuff for as long as he thinks that it will keep listeners' attentions.

These so called tax freebies are there for everyone to take advantage of if you work hard (which you obviously know nothing about). You cannot sit there and tell me if you made that kind of money you would not do the same thing. Hypocrite..... Yea, I am a typical Republican. I work for my money and do not want to give it away to the government to give to people who do not work or are to busy popping out little chitlins to get a bigger welfare check. Go back to serving your burgers at Wendy's.

"Your hateful posts testify to your unhappiness in life."

And let's not forget how his posts divulge his fragile psychological state.

Wow dr Murphy is a freaking wiz with this pyscho babble. Hateful posts? Unhappy life? Miserable person? You are just (as you libs would say) so judgemental of someone you do not know. I am not worht your time yet you continue to reply and assault and judge me. I do not mind it keeps me and my friends laughing at your own self righteousness.

Why? Because only a doctor can figure out the crazy person in a room? As adults, being able to identify such issues becomes part of how we negotiate our way through all public areas.

Lets not just blame the useless republicans here...... Dummycrats are just as guilty. Lets face it, ALL politicians are in it for themselves and their own power. Fiscal cliff.... it is still Ebonic Economics. These little terms they come for for their screw ups are to funny.

We'll see where this country is in 4 yrs. Socialism doesn't work. We don't all deserve to have the same things. Yes, we all deserve to have healthcare, but even that shouldn't be "equal". Those that work & pay for it & then have to turn around & pay for others thru their taxes should still have the same benefits they had before all of this Obamacare malarkey. Oh, you want to say Obamacare is a choice. Come on people..we are all going to pay for it. My healthcare cost are going up almost $1800 more a yr starting in Jan. and that doesn't even begin to pay the high deductible we are now going to have because the govmt has told our company if they don't pass that on to the employees THEY WILL BE FINED....really? Why we would ever want the govmt involved in our choices for healthcare is beyond me. Our forefathers did not establish the govmt so that they could have a say in everything we do. It's coming though & socialism is just a start. The naive & wishful thinkers better wake up soon. There is no such thing as utopia, but I have a feeling hell on earth isn't too far away. Greed is a sin & greed is what is taking this country down. It doesn't matter which political party one supports. All Americans are in trouble. Stop the blaming & realize a country divided is a weak country & I truly believe there are certain people in our govmt that want us that way. Think about it.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

35 years old, thanks for asking.

Not sure there ever was a social pact. We are hurting due to comparative advantage and as a country we need to adapt. Nothing stays frozen in time. There are many who are doing fine in the current economy, but the days of unskilled workers making good money are over. Unskilled, or lower skilled workers can be easily replaced by other humans (here or abroad) or by automation. This has been the case since the industrial revolution, and in similar forms since the beginning of the human experience.

The culture of money over everything is problematic to be sure. I would suggest that this has nothing to do with wealth and that greed isn't owned by the rich alone. It is visible to me that many want something for nothing or long for a time in the past that never existed. So many kids these days take out loans to get a worthless degree than complain they can't get a high paying job. Why would I hire someone with no experience and a BA in sociology, philosophy, political science, or women's studies? What value can they bring to my companies? Why would a manufacturing company pay someone $25/hr plus benefits when they can automate for much less?

Life is hard, and even harder for those that make poor decisions and don't invest in themselves to increase their value. Corporations exist to make money. Finding a way to increase shareholder value still gets rewarded. In this ultra competitive environment, nothing is free.

Not a rapper.

I know, MZ, I know! : )

By the way, Murphy, I have missed you all, have been busy. But you are a good guy...and in spite of the fact that I disagree with your focus and opinions...I have great respect for you!

I happened to see Louise Story on Greta....I googled to find the specific NYT article but couldn't find the article. From her interview, I gathered that Its rather 'nation wide', this practice of enticing business. Just her comments on GM....Texas is not the only one who lures business with friendly financial/tax breaks. Do you have a web address for the article?

Not MZ hammer but I am 2 legit to quit and u can't touch this!

So...'LOWER' tax receipts is a fallacy. They would NOT have had these taxes if the businesses stayed away. They are taking nothing from the food stamp coffers. Their presence increased commerce and the 'other' taxes a state receives from their just living there.

But, Murphy, it makes economic sense. Whichever location offers the best deal gets the prize. The community which hosts these companies makes the gains. That is not a bad lesson. Obviously, the presence of the company or companies boost the coffers, tax wise and commerce wise. The companies do NOT 'steal' money from the community, they add to the local assets. Their choice to leave or shut down is a loss to any community, jobs and taxes.

Its a matter of your point of view. If you want to hate the states that provide this, go ahead but those that don't provide this, lose. If you want to hate the companies which look for these breaks, go ahead...but it just makes good business sense and is not a matter of greed. This report really should be instructive on how to have a balanced government economy, instead its tarred and feathered with bias, not common sense.

Murph, California has the highest sales tax rate in the US, the 8th highest corporate income tax, tied w/ NY for the highest gasoline tax rate in the US, and is the only state which taxes carbon emissions. California accounts for 12% of the US population but 33% of Americans that receive assistance for needy families. Their Teachers are paid the highest in the nation but California students rank 48th in Math and 49th in reading. In 2011 58,000 people moved from California to Texas.

California has missed the boat. Their high taxes and well paid teachers did nothing to improve the educational level for their state. Talk about degrading circumstances, obviously government 'taxing' does not avert degradation.

Murphy-Solon

9:11 am on Saturday, December 8, 2012
"the most recent election."

Your reply is so empty and meaningless, it's hard to know where to start. It is obvious that you have been taught that when engaging in a debate, one need not actually try and make a point. I am sure you truly believe what you have written, no matter that it is void of merit.

John, name the flaws. Start at the beginning. G run a few businesses than get back to me on why corporations exist.

Such creativity, MZ...I am so not impressed with the ability to copy, paste and substitute. For starters, the Republicans say that the wealthy corporations are job creators. You say they are not in business to provide jobs. Who's not telling the truth?

Maybe the comparison isn't the best, but you must get the point of what he is saying. If the laws and tax code is as they are, then don't be surprised that the corporations (and individuals) will conduct their business that gives them the best bottom line.
The target of all your complaints should be Washington, where these laws originate and have made doing business overseas more beneficial. And NAFTA harmed us in many ways.
Quit blaming the companies for serving their shareholders - blame those in Washington representing you.
The laws need changed so there is less incentive to go overseas -and this does not mean rewarding companies for staying here. Even Trump, who has some strange ideas, has put forth some good ideas on this subject.

Murphy, what is the solution?

Murphy, I am honored that you agree with me! Honestly, though, I am almost always in agreement with your viewpoint on virtually every topic. I look forward to reading your blog!!

Murphy, let us know when and where the blog will gestate! Cheers!

Even tho some of us may disagree with various of your points of view, I know that Lori, Lyn, MZ and I will stand against the haters on your behalf! Go for it!

I agree.
Please try the blog.
It is nice to be able to discuss national issues on a local forum. But, it would be nice if the comments would be limited to the topic, rather than the person commenting.
I learn so much from these discussions - even though you and I are most often on opposite sides of an issue.

Murph, good game today! So much fun I didn't even mind the rain in the dog pound. As far as the blog goes, let the haters hate.

Phil, unfortunately it doesn't matter. Over half of the Americans that voted think Republicans are racist old white guys, that money grows on trees and that Pbama is either the messiah or Santa Claus. Common sense and rational behavior are a thing of the past. Jealousy and class envy are hip. Quit fighting and join the 99%! This is what democracy looks like!

Ideology and emotion pre-empt facts and common sense. When you have a nation that is basted in narcissism and the me me me mantra...this is what you get. It can't last.

I wish you people would just get over yourselves, the election is over, and now it's time to whine I guess? No, we are not all lazy freeloaders who stand around with our hands out all day! We work hard to bring home a paycheck that won't feed our families, while CEO's get million-dollar bonuses to retire! And NO, that's NOT "jealousy" or "class envy"...it's pointing out the sick facts of American economics. Get over your name-calling and armchair analyses, please! I'm tired of being called names by people who don't know a damn thing about me! I don't want their money or their "things"...I just want to be treated fairly and with respect. No American who labors for 40 hours a week or more should be in or near poverty level. It used to be that companies made good profits AND treated their workers with dignity...no more, however. This is what I object to, nothing else.

MZ, do you really not know what kind of trouble the GOP is in? Its ideology is becoming more irrelvant with each passing day. And once again, your comments are full of sweeping generalizations that just aren't true. "Common sense and rational behavior are a thing (sic) of the past." The recent election proved just the opposite.

BTW, the fact that you two would agree with ANYTHING Phil Blackmore says, is scary and sad at the same time.

Your right John. The deck is stacked against you. There is nothing you can do but work hard for nothing while e evil CEOs take everything for themselves. The game is rigged against you and you have no options, no hope.

Somewhere in the constitution is garuntees equal outcomes for all, no matter the skills, work ethic, or risk they take.

Your right about the GOP. There days are numbered. Equality in opportunity isn't nearly as rosey sounding as equality in outcomes. The electorate has spoken loud and clear. They have given Obama his mandate to spread the wealth around, to raise taxes on the rich, to have a larger federal government that provides more for those that are getting screwed by the man.

Sounds great on paper. The only problem is that history is riddled with numerous countries that have tried this. Sadly, I know how this book ends, even sadder, my kids will have no knowledge of how great this country once was. But hey, at least you can get some of that Obama money!

Geez...as usual, MZ, your mean-spirited sarcasm is neither appreciated nor appropriate. I have never believed in guaranteed equal outcomes for all, just equal opportunity to achieve the best possible outcome for each person, using his own unique abilities and talents, within an environment that encourages individual growth. You want my solution to the problem? Well, my vote in the last election was the first step.

John, you are misreading me, there was no sarcasm intended at all. As for the mean spirited comment, go re-read your previous comment where you told anybody that disagreed with you to get over it and stop whining. You then proceed to call another poster and anybody who agrees with him "scary and sad." I haven't resorted to name calling and don't intend to. You then say that you are tired of being "called names." Again, at what point did I call you names? Relax. You are right, I don't know you, you don't know me. If we don't know each other, and I have no impact on your life, why would anything I write on this site matter to you in the least?

You also said that "No American who labors for 40 hours a week or more should be in or near poverty level." I would counter and say that it certainly depends on what they are doing with those 40 hours. Not all work is equal my friend.

As far as your vote in the last election, what do you think Obama will accomplish that will make things better? Please enlighten me.

Thank you Phyllis for your sentiments, and for recognizing that I am not a charity case. I have worked continuously since the day I turned 16 and was able to get a work permit (remember those). I have two bachelor's degrees and still struggle because I have not found my niche. Many of the mistakes made over the years were definitely mine, and I own them. However, big business and its policies have helped hold me back. It's one of the reasons I get a whopping 2% (23.75 cents last year) raise annually...IF I hound the bosses enough to get them to remember. It is frustrating trying to find other employment, especially now since I'm at that age where most companies prefer to hire younger, less experienced, CHEAPER workers. Yes, there IS an entitlement mentality out there, however I don't think it's as pervasive as people would have you think. There are MANY of us out here that want to work and earn a salary we can live on, and that's all. I don't care about getting "free stuff"! Save that for the do-nothing members of our Congress!!

Right to work? Horrible, horrible! for Americans!!

@ Lori: The State gov't does NOT hand our billions of dollars to corporations. They give them 'breaks' in rates, but the State still gets income and the communities reap the benefits of commerce and employment by virtue of the corporation or businesses presence.

And why was the recession almost non-existent in Texas? It hit us, just not as hard as the rest of the country. The businesses and corporations which have and continue to move to Texas are NOT oil affiliated. Small businesses in all arenas manage to succeed and thrive here. A kid who used to work on my 'ranch' doing mowing, etc., went to Pennsylvania to work on the pipe lines for 6-7 mos. He came home, and with the $ he earned, opened a feed store (the best feed store in 5 counties) and has opened another in a town 20 miles away. He is going great guns and I am proud of this kid. Naturally I buy all my feed and gardening needs from him, as do many others.

This kid exemplifies the 'spirit of Texas'. Our big chicken man's company flopped and failed....( Beau Pilgrim, the guy who started it in the 50's lives here in a beautiful 'chateau'. He had too much advice from those MBA's, as to borrowing and expanding...KERPLUNK and after all those years...his company is gone. But there are still wonderful success stories which have nothing to do with oil.

Sorry to hear about your situation John. I do have a question for you. What is your solution? What would you do to solve the problem?

Wow......I sure missed a lot of good stuff yesterday after I left my computer. At any rate...I do not suggest that a corporation/business has no responsibility to contribute taxes community. The corps/businesses which come to our state get tax breaks, but they still pay taxes. The State sees the positive economic fall out for the communities when a company offers jobs, upswing in commerce and yes, taxes. Its not just oil that made Texas the 15th largest economy in the world...its a way of thinking.

What is the solution? If granted Czar powers over the economy, what fixes would you put in place?

What are people demanding? What does OWS want? What does Obama mean by spreading the wealth around? The single point I remember from the Obama campaign ( besides free birth control) was raising taxes on the rich. When a reporter pointed out to Obama that his policy would fund the government for around 8 days (or something like that), he said it was about fairness.

Help me understand, I'm clearly a little slow.

I don't wish for a small middle class. I want everyone to do as well as their God given talents will carry them.

Be bold, take calculated risks, and make the most of the short time we have. This still can be the land of opportunity, but there is fierce competition globally. We can no longer take advantage of 1/3 of the planet being decimated after WWII and having no choice to but buy from us. The third world is becoming more and more competitive as the days pass. We can long for the good old times all we want, but they are gone. We can strive to be better, or we can slink into becoming the "new" old world and head the way of Europe.

Again, if the solutions to our problems don't lie within each of us. If it is not up to each individual to do the best for them and their family, then what is the solution?

What do you ink would happen if every corporation in the US was forced to give a 10% raise to each and every employee?

Wow...I can't wait till you start that blog! Your words consistently astonish me. Well said, once again! You get it!!

About?

Murphy...are you gonnna start that blog? All of us are waiting! Our group John, Lori, Lyn, and MZ...I love them. You need to get it going! Its so good to see how others who differ from one's own thinking...think. Its a whole lot better than slinging invectives!

Murph, the tides are changing in Germany as well.

From the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/business/worldbusiness/26labor.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

My take is that much of what is made in Germany are higher end niche products that require the consumer to pay a premium. Those willing to pay that premium still exist, but the competition is growing. Much like how the Japanese originally entered the auto market with low end "throw away" vehicles and eventually entered the high end and captured market share, so are the Koreans. There is no way to avoid the competitiveness of the Global Market place. Germany is already feeling the impact and will more so in the future.

You can get away with paying the highest hourly rate in the world so long as the world considers you products to be the best, or a status symbol, and there are enough people willing to pay for them. If your perceived quality goes down, or your competitors quality increases you have issues. If your brand goes out of favor for any reason you have issues. If the quantity of people willing to pay the premium for your brand decreases you have issues. If any combination of these things occurs in parallel, you have big problems.

Murph, the tides are changing in Germany as well.

From the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/26/business/worldbusiness/26labor.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

My take is that much of what is made in Germany are higher end niche products that require the consumer to pay a premium. Those willing to pay that premium still exist, but the competition is growing. Much like how the Japanese originally entered the auto market with low end "throw away" vehicles and eventually entered the high end and captured market share, so are the Koreans. There is no way to avoid the competitiveness of the Global Market place. Germany is already feeling the impact and will more so in the future.

You can get away with paying the highest hourly rate in the world so long as the world considers you products to be the best, or a status symbol, and there are enough people willing to pay for them. If your perceived quality goes down, or your competitors quality increases you have issues. If your brand goes out of favor for any reason you have issues. If the quantity of people willing to pay the premium for your brand decreases you have issues. If any combination of these things occurs in parallel, you have big problems.

<cointinued>
As the perceived gap between BMW/Audi/Mercedes and the competition tightens (as it is right now), or the gap between Seimens and GE, or Fanuc, or Asian copies tightens, German companies will continue to battle their labor unions, will increasingly look to outsource, and will need to in order to survive. There is no escaping this reality while maintaining current levels of production. They could choose to become even more niche, raise prices, and compete more and more at the very high end, but the market for that won’t support the current employment levels. If they did that, they could pay the reduced number of employees even more than they do currently and survive as a much smaller firm (think Rolex/Ferrari/etc…).

I like that approach...read the book first. I try to do that too! We will just have to wait, I guess!